[Finished] Liquidity rewards program v2

[Gold]

@Revolve, good summation! Couple things.

@Revolve

Idea 1) Voting

• Description : Add Voting Incentives to users when they provide liquidity.
• Budget : The cost is developing time from Incognito developers.
• Timeline : Hopefully a mock solution within a month?
• Benefits : Users who help the platform and invest the most money into it, will have more say over the direction of the platform. This will give Incognito more confidence in the eyes of investors and make more people want to provide liquidity.

Idea 1: Voting rights is a good idea, but it needs checks and balances of some kind. If the people with the most money have the most power, how do we prevent them from upvoting changes that only serve them and not everyone on the platform?

@Revolve

• Description : As you increase your investment into the liquidity pools, your reward gets increased as well. However the more you provide, the less increase in gain you receive.

To clarify, the more you invest, the higher the rate you earn. It’s just that the increase increments get smaller. Brief example:

• $1000 @ 10%
• $2000 @ 15%
• $3000 @ 18%
• $4000+ @ 20%

The numbers above are solely to illustrate the idea of decreasing increments. They are not an actual proposed tier structure.

[Tempestblack]

Damn…Gooo Revolve…cool presentation…and Gold makes valid points…but hey excellent work so far……but to the rest of us take note of what Joe Moffett said for indeed most investors are here first for the potential ROI and second for the privacy aspect but with time the benefit of this project will supersede the economics…especially is the story of exchange selling database is true

[andrey]

Hey @brtmn

@brtmn

The biggest problem is the broken promise of an APR, when I invested I understood that the rates would stay the same at least until the end of this year, this applies both to staking and liquidity.

This is very good point. It shows me one of two things

• either you haven’t read the description of LP V1
• either you are trying to manipulate right now
  

@brtmn may I ask you what was your stake in the liquidity when it was V1 and what is your stake when V2 ?

[davoice321]

Just came across this model for balancer labs.

They allow 90/10 pools, which limits impermanent loss

()

[brtmn]

I think the term APR is misleading in that case, to answer the question - I understood from context, that the change is going to occur after the current rate is sustained for 12 months.

Also, the relation between the pool size and the amount of individual rewards was not apparent.

My comments are a sentiment, I am not complaining per-se, since evidently nobody forced me to participate.

Currently, I am holding around 5k PRV, 2k is still in liquidity pool with dai/bat/bnb pairs and the rest is in staking.

There’s less than 10k USD value that still remains on incognito for me, that’s approximately a 3x reduction from my original exposure.

imho, I am missing some important information on what exactly is incognito.org from organizational perspective, since it doesn’t feel like I am dealing with a commercial project, it seems to be a collection of like-minded individuals with similar goals.

With my original commentary, I did not try to manipulate opinion or bash the project, I tried to provide a perspective from the point of view of a small time investor, that was sold on the idea of privacy and didn’t do lots of research before deployment.

In all honesty, I should have quizzed people and been reading forums, before committing, so there’s that.

My suggestion would be to reword text pertaining to percentage calculus and overall rewards and accent the changing nature of above.

[Jerry_Watson]

I hear you, not harping, but APR % does not mean it will hold for 12 months, but that is what to expect at that rate for 12 months.
The APR % could change day to day for rewards if needed.
So, I’m not quite sure what’s misleading about that?

[Thriftinkid]

Hey Guys,

I’ve been keeping up on this thread, and the communication has been great. A lot of great ideas have been put out there. You guys can take this for what it’s worth, but I thought I’d add my two cents from the little guys perspective. First and foremost, I am a firm believer in privacy rights. This extends far beyond crypto trading for me. When I first heard of the incognito project last year, I bought a node. I didn’t know much about anything from the platform side of crypto trading. I just dabbled with actual trading. However, the idea of the project seemed to match my values, and the process seemed simple enough to take a gamble on the ground floor of things. Buy a device, plug it in, make your money back in a year. I didn’t do much research, or anything for that matter, for the next few months. I just plugged it in and left it. Which, while I realize is not the best idea, is what I would assume anyone who knows nothing about this world would do. I feel like that is actually the market that was being targeted with a plug and play device. In the last few months though, I decided to become more invested in the community. I started reading through the threads, and I started having a better idea of the project. I looked at the rates, and thought I had a simple, but firm, grasp on what was going on. I bought two more nodes, and I decided I was going to invest some more money. I was going to see this through for at least the next year. My app told me what the investment rates would be for the next year, so naturally I believed that. I also talked to someone else who has investments all over. I made my pitch to him and his response was, “I trust you to do your research. So, I’ll invest.” This is a statement I don’t take lightly. However, I’ve been moving money in as this switch over has happened, and I’m as shook as anyone else about some things that have come to light. Yes, buried in a thread is a statement that rates may change. No, I did not know that my rates would change based on liquidity. I opened the investment tab on the app, and it just showed me APRs, so those are the numbers I was going on. Furthemore, I was looking for a way to track my investment, and the best I could find was a thread that basically said “Pretend like you’re pulling your money out, so you can see what you actually have.” This didn’t feel like a sound way for me to track my investment. More importantly, an investment given to me by someone else. I want to have answers if he has questions. So, I dove into the Incognito Network Explorer and basically taught myself javascripting just to be able to pull the data I needed into a google sheet. While I like to nerd out on stuff like that, it is not doing any average investor any favors by not knowing what is going on with their money in real time. I can pull realtime PRV pricing, overall liquidity per pair, and volume. But, as of now, I am still stuck though. The apr rates are different for each side of the pair, and I cant pull that latest data. So, I still can’t really track my investment the way I need to. It has been updated to say 55K to liquidity providers. But is that split between all pairs? 55k per pair? It doesn’t tell me that. I feel like going that far to get real numbers and still coming up short is a red flag that the investment side of this isnt as thought out as I originally believed. Even the calculators I’ve found are basic at best. They aren’t, in any way, a representation of what you would actually make when you invest. While I still have my money on the platform, I am basically in a holding pattern. While he and I both understand risk in any investment, I am not willing to put anyone’s money into something I don’t have a firm grasp on. Like I said, just my two cents. I feel like the conversation overall is heading in the right direction despite the network hemorrhaging since June 1st. If anyone is interested. Here is the spreadsheet I’ve been working on with some random sample data. Tracks real time PRV price, staking rewards, and latest crypto pricing as of now. I have the investment part done as I currently understand rewards to be calculated based on this post, but I will finish working on the investment part once this gets sorted out. Will be adding ROI too.

INCOGNITO WORKING SAMPLE

[Tempestblack]

Thank you Thriftinkid for sharing your thoughts for I would not doubt if more members/investors feel as you do…it is why it’s important this issue be resolved asap

[Tryche]

@brtmn

The biggest problem is the broken promise of an APR, when I invested I understood that the rates would stay the same at least until the end of this year, this applies both to staking and liquidity.

To me personally this feels like bait and switch. I’m hurt, disappointed and no longer trust the project, if this can go any way the devs decide to, then perhaps they’re the only ones who should use the product.

This is a a solid, valid point. I did not originally think of this as I currently have funds in the staking pool but not in the Liquidity pool. I did not think about how the changes in rewards being so sudden instead of year end as originally stated would instantly affect the investors in the Liquidity Pool.

If I was only here for the gains, had say 5K in the Liquidity Pool expecting to see X return on my funded pair for the year. Then, almost overnight… the terms of this deal was changed. I would have done the same thing, Pulled it all and moved on.

Now, I came to Incognito purely by chance. See, I am tired, I mean TIRED of working my tail off day in and day out. So a few years ago I began to start investing. First in Stocks and Options, then added Crypto. My honest interest in the Blockchain/crypto world plain and simple is profits. Well I can not trade crypto the way I want to due to being a Washington St. resident on the platforms that have the trade features I need. I of course found Crypto.com but have no where near the funds to fully utilize them. So my searches led me here. In my reading, I began to see what incognito is all about, what the community is all about and the investor in me knew just how volatile this type of investment could be. So I am here for the long haul. This is my view. As an Investor, I get how bad a taste this can leave in ones mouth. Actual investors, not just Robinhooders, accept risks, usual catch the fine print that terms/APY can change. Overnight changes generally cause investor panic.

With that being said there is one cold fact that just has to be accepted. For this program to succeed, It needs money. The community can be a good help in that but can not be relied on, in any 5 year plan type deal to generate the funds to keep the program moving forward. Everyone’s idea of a “whale” investor is different. to me, a whale is a 1M+ no less. We need big money investors. So how about a maximum investment cap for X amount a time? this can always be adjusted or removed if the Liquidity Pool ecosystem stabilizes enough to change this.

Keep a focus on getting the community to be also active investors, in whatever way they can. Focus on community expansion to facilitate further general community investors while gaining exposure to higher fund investors.

[Tempestblack]

Thanks for your honesty Bro…

[Jerry_Watson]

Where does it say that the liquidity and staking program rewards percentages were going to stay the same until December 31, 2020? I understood it was an introductory rewards program and it would change sometime, and to get the most out of it while I could?

[Oerang_Badoey]

I believe, it is still profitable with current liquidity reward, as long as price movement up . I create a simple calculation on comment here, Liquidity pool loss?

[Tranbr]

@Oerang_Badoey

I believe, it is still profitable with current liquidity reward

The PL monday’s reward will affect the very near future.
The PL month’s reward will affect the near future.
(I’ve no medium talent espacially ^^)

[Revolve]

@andrey
Imagine if we had a a liquidity token. When you buy it (with PRV), your money gets distributed into multiple liquidity pools. Maybe something like this.

Liquidity Distribution Breakdown
10% - pUSDT
20% - pUSDC
30% - pDAI
–
10% - pBTC
20% -pETH
30% -pXMR

These numbers are based on how much liquidity each coin has. Lower liquidity pools would be prioritized over higher ones. Only half your PRV would be invested in the pCoins listed above, the other half would be used to pair.

---

All the PRV gained from liquidity rewards go directly into increasing the price of the Token. You would be able to see your token increase in price, directly through the wallet. If you want to sell your token, your liquidity would be pulled out from each individual pool, and any potential loss would get eaten by the price of the Token.

Benefits of a system like this:
-Easy to invest in, all you need is some PRV.

-People are able to see their value increase in the wallet easily.

-Funds are allocated to the liquidity pools that need it the most.

-You could add staking functionality to the Token. For example, if you stake the liquidity token with PRV (1:1) you get slightly higher returns. We could lower current APY from 37% to 35%. When you stake together with the Token, your APY changes to 40%. So you would get bonus rewards in PRV on top of the value that your Token is gaining. This would be a very good incentive to keep your money locked up.

-Once cross pair liquidity providing is functional (no PRV), you would be able to exchange the Token for other crypto without the liquidity you provided needing to get withdrawn.

What do you think?

Call the token Liquid (LIQD), many people would invest in it.

The best part is, everything needed to create something like this is pretty much already functional. The only part would be automating it and potentially add the staking mechanic to it.

I was thinking about doing it myself, but I don’t think people would invest if it was all done manually.

[Josh_Hamon]

This will probably not be a popular thought.

I think some simple changes could have the desired effect.

1. State LP APR/Y in terms of the total pair. Even if you create that number by only looking at PRV always and only state the % in terms of the total.
   (1a. Explain the downside protection as a selling point. But please show different scenarios as it’s not 50% but it’s more than anyone else is offering.)
2. Maximize the APR because we want to incentivize this behavior for the long term health of the entire project.
3. Staking pool rewards should be less than LP rewards. The project doesn’t need the staking pool. People interested in one can go other places for this service. (Honestly, I initially wrote this point as end the staking pool, even though I use it heavily because it’s easier than adding liquidity.)

Once people can add liquidity by just adding PRV that will help.

[Tranbr]

If investors can furnish only PRV or only a specific token in LP, from where comes the liquidity of the other pair-side(bat,btc,usdx…)?
More generaly, i don’t understand to what serves staking PRV only, and what the goal of a pair balance different than 50/50.

[Revolve]

@Josh_Hamon, @Tranbr
Well the idea was to convert 50% of the PRV to the various pCoins above, so you are providing half of your investment in pCoins as well as PRV. It goes on top of the current model. People would still be able to provide liquidity like normal, but if they want to invest in a token that automatically balances the liquidity to the most needed pools they can.

Personally I would rather invest in something like this if it was streamlined. If I can lock it up with PRV to gain slightly more rewards on my APY, even better. It’s nothing drastic and incentivizes you to keep your money in it. The benefits would include, eventually being able to take out your value directly from exchanging directly to other crypto instead of ‘withdrawing’ to PRV. Sure your still taking out liquidity from the network, but the impermanent losses aren’t getting carried over to the Token in this scenario.

I guess people rather get the rewards in PRV and automatically stake instead? Personally I think it would be cool to have the value of my Token that I invested in increase as my reward for providing. But then again, it’s optional, it’s not the only way to invest in liquidity.

If I’m gaining from the value of the Token as well as an extra PRV bonus from staking 1:1 with PRV, I wouldn’t want to sell anytime soon. This would make liquidity providing rewards go together with staking. That way if you want to stake, to maximize profits you would want to provide for liquidity too.

[Tryche]

Great points! Yes, the staking pool should never provide higher APY over the Liquidity pool. Perhaps you also make a darn good point on the staking pool. Perhaps having 2 options for APY returns is a bit redundant. Maybe combine both pools? After pools have combined, maybe a good reason to think about lock periods for the liquidity pool. I have stated it before, but nothing rediculos just to help keep liquidity up.

[Tryche]

It does not. Was not saying anywhere does it guarantee those returns for X amount of time. I read long ago it can change. The point was the change was known about, or at least could be seen. A heads up to those invested in the liquidity pool may have just added some peace of mind.

Like I said, true investors know the road in crypto investments, especially in one’s like incognito are gonna be rather rocky and to expect some rather bumpy roads for a while.

[Jerry_Watson]

I was just mainly talking about the person you quoted. That person seems to think, or thought if you slapped the word APR on something, that means for the rest of that specific year the rewards rate will stay the same…which is just not how that works. That’s all I was pointing out.