Can PRV really run one day decentralized?

I wonder if our network can become one day really decentralized?

At the moment the core team is running 176 fixed slots and has recently decided to let them run now at least until April 2021:

November 2019 - April 2021 = Approx. 518 days
-> 518 days * (176 Slots * Reward in average 25 PRV * 6 times a day)
Result the core team will generate around 13.675.200 PRV

This would be enough PRV to setup 7814 nodes. So what happens if they do it this way? They would have full control over the network in this case.

Don’t get me wrong I’m enthusiastic about this project because we really need a privacy layer solution for the blockchain industry. But because I really want Incognito to succeed I’m worried about these things. Who can guarantee that this scenario is not happening? Later on it is planned to have a real DAO here, so it would be possible if enough people decide to do so. This could really harm the project massively. Right now it is not to late, to avoid these scenarios completely.

Moreover what is happening right now with the other 500 nodes which the teams are running (from the users provided PRV). The users get 37% on their PRV but what is happening with the rest, which these nodes generate?

Again I do not think negative about the team at all you really do a great job. But this question came up to me and so I wanted to find out if the team already has done something to avoid these things.

This great project has to succeed, we need to establish this great privacy solution before blockchain goes mainstream.

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I think the count is wrong,isn’t it?
every node like this would earn:
13.675.200total supposed/518 days =26400 PRV/176 nodes = 150 PRV PER DAY PER NODE!!!

it would be nice but your count is wrong.
We will wait someone more expert than me that will tell you the exact number of PRV mined by each node in one day! so you can make again that calculation.

ALSO i want to point out that the approach of funding stake to user that buy a node is a great improve to decentralization.
Look what cointelegraph say about it :slight_smile: (around min 3.30)

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150 PRV per day is realistic, because they have fixed slots. A node normally earns during 4 hours around 20-34 PRV. So they make this 6x a day every 4 hours with every node.

it is 25-35 PRV per week so 150 per month not daily

LOOK HERE!

What do you mean with “fixed slots”?

And also, did you understand the potential of having nodes with funded coins?
nobody outside have a feature like that… think about it and what this could mean for the future of incognito network.

This is for the normal node owners. The team is having 176 fixed slots so they do not have to compete to be selected. Thus they running 176 nodes which are always validating 24/7.

You can see it also here on the Roadmap Incognito Core Dev 2020 Live Roadmap :slight_smile:

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Good point Sato. I’m really interested in this, too. Can you give us a statement about this please? @Ducky @andrey

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Actually it’s not 25prv per epoch it is 10.92

That means 518 x (176x(10.92x6)) = 5,973,327.36

Not exactly as high as Sato’s first calc, but still an extremely LARGE number.
I think his point is still valid.

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i think some of those token should be used for marketing purpose , developing, building the infrastucture and maintaining it and other stuff. Maybe someone from the team @andrey should tell us more .
Anyway i believe that all the blockchains in the first phases must be more centralized because doing so it is much safer in terms of possible malicious attacks by a third entity, as the team can manage to control big part of the network.
The bad thing is that, at least in the first phase, you have to trust a bit the team.
I hope that in the future as more users join incognito and buy nodes this situation will change.
All that being said , i trust the incognito team so far, they are really working on the product they want to deliver.
Many whitepaper projects out there ,also on the TOP 50…i like that here the team is developing very fast and the community have a voice.

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There should be more than a few posts with replies from the team on this subject as it comes up every once in a while. The funds are used for paying bills, the builder rewards and so on.

The Node pool earnings are used to run vNodes and provide liquidity to pDEX.

I don’t have the exact numbers but that is what it is used on, and what was stated it were going to be used on. No secrets here.

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All these numbers…pfftt…at this point it’s fantasy land for me…my one pnode has not earned a single prv coming on 30 days…so I do not know about all these nodes earning these kinds of earnings all I know is that at the rate my one pnode is earning this whole thing is a total BUST!!!..and yea…I am pissed off right now… :angry:…oh and by the way…I purchased some PRV a couple of hours ago with some USDC and I am still waiting for it to show up…where the frack is it!!!..so I can vote because it cost to vote remember!!!..damn I am pissed right now… :face_with_symbols_over_mouth:

Hey @Tempestblack, don’t worry, the team will help you soon, I had the same problem once with coins not showing up, but the team solved it within 1 day. Just be calm and wait until they help :slightly_smiling_face: @Peter @Ducky

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@Tempestblack we sent you a DM, pls check it out.

Hey Sato, the quick answer is Yes, this is the goal and this is why we are working 24/7 to make it happen.

The network must be stable before released to the whole world. If you know a way how the no-name network can become fully decentralized within the first day after launch and guarantee that no one can take control of it, we are more than happy to discuss and possibly implement such an approach.

But I feel that the main question is not the decentralization, but rather why the core team holds fixed slots and how earned tokens will be used.

I know it’s difficult to believe, but money is not the main motivation for building Incognito. If money was the goal, you would already see big investors behind, you would see PRV tradable on the biggest crypto exchanges. Incognito is about privacy.

Of course, when the Incognito becomes a unicorn, all early supporters win. Same as any other technological unicorns (google, facebook, amazon), same as any other blockahin unicorns (ethereum, binance, coinbase)

If you are part of us and your goal is to be a part of a privacy movement, let’s focus the discussion on

  • how to increase usage of the Incognito, how to bring incognito to millions of crypto users?
  • what kind of other privacy integrations should we do so users can benefit from it?
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I wish to thank Nubex, Ducky, Audrey, Jamie, thinhkakashi and all the other members here for your response and support…I became part of this project and community because I truly believe in it and it’s purpose…and more importantly cause of it’s membership…from the newbie to the most helpful and professional of moderators and development persons…I have stated a few times…you guys are the best period…and I do apologize for my rant…but I would also like to earn something in return for my investment, and yes I have so far earned something, but when I see postings with the kind of numbers I see I think to myself something is wrong with this picture for them is not anyway kind of earnings that I have received…regardless the point is that this project is growing and developing and that is awesome…and therefore understandible about issues like earning capacity of nodes…but if it continues like it has been now for 4 weeks for me so far and now going into the 5th week…well it won’t be just me ranting here in near future…but hey all that being said I am not going to leave this project or lose faith in it and it’s teams…cause once again you guys are the best…just hope my faith comes to be justified…nuff said…sighs… :pensive:

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No this is simply not true @andrey I do care a lot for this project. For this reason I asked and wanted to know what the team is doing with all the PRV. Because like I said if you decide to setup at one day nodes from all this PRV then you will control the complete network easily. Unfortunately it seems like no one wants to give an answer to this question, which is not a good sign at all.

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Hey Sato, I did explain it several times on the forum. But let me share it here also:

  1. The fixed slots will be released once the network is stable, and all development will be finished. More about the timeline is here Incognito Core Dev 2020 Live Roadmap

  2. The funds collected from the fixed slots have been and are used for builder rewards, LP1, LP2, subsidizing Provide, community rewards, and will be used for future and long-term initiatives designed to make the pDEX sustainable, incentivize liquidity providers, support builders, etc.

The idea behind it is quite simple. Give the community more ways to earn and own PRV. Not just by running nodes, but also by contributing liquidity, contributing time, building products, giving ideas, and growing the ecosystem.

We hold fixed slots for stability, and work everyday to release the network safely, as soon as possible. We use the earnings for growth. Everything goes back into development - for both the long and short term.

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Sato I know you care for this project, just like I do and many others here…Andrey has been upfront and honest and lets give Andrey a break…it’s going to work out and you know that cause you have a good heart…but yea Incognito going thru its growing can be a real drag at times and frustrating I feel ya…but watch you will be glad in the long run…what else are we going to do…lol…but keep your good ideas coming for everyone’s input is important to the community… :sunglasses:

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Hey @andrey, I was thinking about this the other day, and having some discussions with people on the Jservers discord chat. If the goal is to become decentralized, shouldn’t the rewards always be higher for a node earner? As more nodes come online, the chances of yours being selected goes down. Which, means earnings go down. I’ve seen some ideas thrown out around the community, but has the team decided a plan of action yet? We had over 200 nodes go online last month to cover the provide interest. Which, I understand. But has there been any discussion about how to work out of that growing loop? If it is more profitable to leave your PRV in provide and earning at a constant rate, why would anyone want a node, let alone pay for it? I thought maybe a subsidizing part of the provide earnings to nodes who don’t earn enough in a month? Let’s say your 1750 would earn you 48 PRV in a month if it was sitting in provide. If your node makes more than that in a month, you get nothing. But if it makes less, you are awarded the difference to make sure you are always ahead of the people simply providing for investing. Kinda like a reward for investing in the project by buying the physical hardware?

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I think that the team is now focusing on bringing new people into INCOGNITO.
The main goals would be:

  • Involve the privacy community

  • Involve DeFi community

Keeping the rewards as they are is good to involve more people that want to earn some interest on them crypto togheter with bringing privacy to those coins.

Anyway, if with Nodes you can earn other crypto, i propose to raise the fees a bit so nodes would be still profitable.(Then we can still lower them in the future i guess)
And also the more we grow the higher will be the income from nodes because we will have an increase in volume and more fees paid to the stakers.
Another point is that with the price increase the earings in USD terms will be higher as well.

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I would not increase the fees yet. First we should improve the network and usability of the app and try to get as many independent developers who contribute with new use ideas / use cases. We should think long term. Create a great platform etc.

All the people who run nodes will have more than enough income for the next 10 years before the rewards are getting to low (if PRV continues to grow in price etc.) once this has happened we will be in a total different world compared to today. Hopefully millions of transactions will happen daily just on our chain or even more. Houses, cars and so on will be tokenized. Trillions will be stored on the blockchain. Thus we won’t need much fees. Let’s keep the “customer” first and we will succeed.

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