Progressive Decentralization: The community now runs 66% of the network

IMO, it would have been nice to have a separate Forum Post specifically the vote to increase fee, how to vote and when the vote deadline will take place.
Perhaps I missed the notifications on social media, For me personally an email update would have been courtesy.

Thank you for your understanding @Linnovations.
A lesson is learned.
There will be a post to explain details and also an email next time.

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Provocative proposition. I’d like to see the community exploring this more. I’m coming from another community that was supposedly a decentralized, community-driven project that turned out to be massively fraudulent and ended with one of the crypto space’s biggest community exploits. I agree transparency in everything is crucial to decentralization–and that the community’s power needs to be explicitly incorporated into code so that it cannot be reversed or circumvented. Code is King.

On another note, the community ought to agree on a central place where proposals sit to await community review and voting. Maybe this has already been addressed in the evolving DAO. I don’t use social media much but would absolutely check an agreed-upon proposal space frequently.

I know this post I’m reading is from Dec 2022 so I’ll keep reading in hopes of seeing these issues addressed (transparency, hard-coded community privileges/DAO authority, central proposal-review space). Thanks @Up2UrHeadlights !

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I agree with you, however, in practice this is easy but when it comes to actually coding it makes it not so easy to do.

We have this, https://incognito.org/vote (access from a desktop browser).

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@Jared, thanks, again, for the comments. I don’t doubt that explicitly empowering the community in code is technically very challenging (and hats off to the teams wrestling with it!), but I don’t think we’ll attract a large community unless we can pull it off. There have just been too many instances of founding members of crypto projects abusing or even absconding with funds once projects become large enough. I don’t know how to do it, but there needs to be a hard assurance that, outside of investment risks people intend to take on, funds aren’t being mishandled.

Looking to the future, can we create smart contracts for p-assets guaranteeing anonymity, ownership, and exchangeability of the assets (pBTC will always be 1:1 exchangeable for BTC…) so no trust is needed? After FTX, Luna… potential investors/liquidity providers are going to want hard assurance.

Another big question I think especially the privacy crowd cares about is voter equity. How are votes counted? By volume of PRV held in wallets? So is it like voting in the US where more dollars buy more votes? Is there any way to get around this problem of disproportionate representation by the wealthy? It seems to me unless decentralization can solve this problem, it just replicates the anti-democratic real-world problem of the wealthy eventually taking control of community resources.

Sorry for the many questions. I REALLY want this community to work out and become THE DEX for crypto. And thanks for the link to the voting space.

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Great questions @KNZ, I share the same concerns.

I wanted to share my views on this with the core team, but think a community call hosted by the core team would be a better approach.

I have some ideas on how to address some of your concern you’ve mentioned above around the ‘more money, more votes.’ which doesn’t sound like fair system to me. My idea revolves around rewarding usage of the incognito platform. The more active a user is on the Incognito platform, the more voting power is allocated to them.

For example (a very simplistic example), lets say we have two Users:
User A: has a small bag of PRV but logs in every week and places trades, uses the “Provide” services and add to some Liquidity Pools. Hence this user is very active on the platform, and
User B: has a huge bag of PRV but only logs into the platform to do a trade twice a year.

There would be a published algorithm that would give more preference to the active user (User A) so that they would get more voting power than the big whale (User B).

We then use the DAO Vote mechanism to approve code changes to the vote preference system code.

I’m open to having a more in depth discussion on this concept as I agree the @KNZ, this is very important for the success of this project moving forward and things need to be transparent. Decentralisation is key to this project’s survival given what has happened with Tornado Cash.

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Love it! I agree–unlike the real world, the cryptoverse can reward participation and community support more equitably than just giving the say to those with the deepest pockets. How do we get going a broader discussion of this in the IncognitoChain community?

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This would open the network to spamming by users to overinflate their usage/rank. Doing so would cause the blockchain to increase and thus put burden on the node operators to store more data for the sole purpose of users trying to get more say.

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What alternatives are there that might satisfy an anti-spam imperative while retarding community control by whales? Surely the status quo of wealth-power proportionality can’t be the only way to build and run a community.

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That is the million dollar question. How do we ensure equal and fair participation while also avoiding bad actors.

Hey @Jared, I really do feel that the Core Dev team should be talk more to the community about this. I presume there is someone (or persons) looking at other projects that have implemented DAO structures and done some Pros / Cons of each.

Some DAO structures that come to mind:

  • Shapeshift DEX
  • MakerDAO
  • Divi Project (they are going through the process, here is a walkthrough of there community announcement - https://youtu.be/VUkoe1bv2As )

Many others I’m sure…

Can you please have the core team share with us what other projects they have studied from a DAO perspective?

Disagree. The more PRV you hold, the more voting power. That is the only logical way for the system to work. If you want to have more voting power, invest in more PRV.

Hi @brico84, I am not aware of what the early distribution of PRV in this project was, but let’s presume the early founders & Devs and angel investors have the biggest bags. Do you feel they would be representative of the community at large?

They may be the only ones with enough PRV to submit proposals and also get the necessary number of votes to have things passed. If the large whales formed a silent committee, there would be not way us small bag holder will be heard. This will lead to centralisation of decision making and governance.

Don’t get me wrong I’m not saying that the amount of PRV you hold should not be a factor. On the contrary, I strongly believe it should be part of an equation, but not the only variable in the equation that determines voting power.

In full disclosure, I’ve had ZERO experience with DAO governance models, just merely putting suggestions out to the community for discussion.

What would be nice to know is if the incognito core team has done some research into other DAO systems of governance and perhaps they can share the pro/cons of different systems then we can have some discussion as a community.

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Thanks for sharing your disagreement. In a fair voting system, you’d have the right to disagree as others would have the right to disagree with you. And every individual’s vote would count the same. Otherwise, a handful of people are truly making the decisions for everyone else and “decentralization” becomes a ruse. I think we have an ethical responsibility to explore ways to prevent this.

One major problem with “if you want to have more voting power, invest in more PRV” is it marginalizes those who don’t have the resources to amass millions and millions of PRV. Most people in most communities are not rich. I think it counterproductive to the ethos of a DAO to hand over voting control to a tiny wealthy minority.

But I respect the right of this community to choose that option. I just wouldn’t want to participate if so.

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Well said @KNZ !
I hope the incognito core team will host an open discussion with the community to share with us what research they have conducted thus far on DAO systems and rules that has been utilised by other projects.

For democracy to prevail, there has to be trust in the system and that “My vote counts” and that every vote is treated equally.

I hope Incognito adopts a system that is fair for all and not primarily based on PRV bag size. Hence why I thought we should base voting (in part) in usage of the platform as it will be the users of the system that will be most impacted by DAO decisions.

One has the impression at times when rereading certain remarks that the big investors are harmful and want to appropriate everything, that their decisions will necessarily be only for their own interest.
This is not necessarily a generality
They are important in the ecosystem and are not necessarily harmful or malicious. They seek like everyone else to grow their capital .
If they are present, it is because they believe in the project and participate in its development. They have no interest in voting things that are counterproductive and can tip the scales on proposals from low-budget people if it is beneficial for our development. They take risks much more important than us . The goal being to make grow together , and to all be able to profit from a beneficial growth. Everyone deserves respect, rich or poor , black or white . Here we are all incognito and everyone contributes at their level . Do you really think that our community validate vote that would be harmful to our economy? You have to stay realistic.
When I see some people making a scandal because the fees have been increased to 0.1 PRV , everything is done to make the poorest pay, you have to take advantage of them, there are so many of them there is no miracle recipe, for the moment we have not been able to witness a seizure of power or a decision with a bundle of banknotes. We can optionally add security, by adding the possibility of canceling a decision if it causes a problem for the majority of the community, if a decision is wrong , just make a 2nd vote but this time with an absolute majority. It will straighten things out on its own.
Here we give you the floor, the developers do as much as possible to help everyone and go in the direction of the community, whether they like it or not, but they do it.
No one can complain here, and those who think the grass is greener elsewhere? Appearance may be, when things are going well, but mistakes are human
No one else will we help you the day you do something stupid by sending coins to an inappropriate wallet, no one will take you by the hand and bother to help you to recover your lost funds, they will not even bother to answer you, and if they answer you they will tell you that you are at fault, you just have to be careful. At incognto they will do everything possible to fix your mistakes, while nothing is forcing them, always kind and helpful, no one is left out or denigrated, They put their work aside to help people, but when they fall behind the roadmap, some people do not hesitate to criticize that it is progressing not fast enough, stop always thinking that has its own interest, The day will come when you will talk more than with bots, Code is easier to fix than humans
Elsewhere we don’t even give you the floor, we strip you with marketing techniques, statistics and follow-up of your slightest actions and gestures, elsewhere you are the product, and if you manage well and make good profits, it is the taxation of your country that will seek to reduce your profits, once again you will be the product and no chance they give you a gift, your data will be disclosed without scruples. The Abuse of Power Start Here there are the biggest manipulative whales and they act completely legally! I think our biggest investors are here for the same reason than our poorest, to fight against this system which seeks to take away our rights and our freedom!

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Too long to read :slight_smile: @CryptodroiD

Some feedback:
1- Please increase #paragraphs and space between paragraphs
2- If possible, use bullets
3- If possible, use short sentences :slight_smile:

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Don’t forget about Dash. They’re probably the oldest running DAO out there now.

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